{"id":1714,"date":"2010-11-22T04:36:31","date_gmt":"2010-11-22T04:36:31","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/2018\/11\/27\/239-revision-v1\/"},"modified":"2019-08-25T03:32:18","modified_gmt":"2019-08-25T03:32:18","slug":"a-meditation-on-platos-ion-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/2010\/11\/22\/a-meditation-on-platos-ion-2\/","title":{"rendered":"A meditation on Plato&#8217;s Ion"},"content":{"rendered":"<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">Plato was an\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"Ancient Greek Philosophy\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/Ancient+Greek+Philosophy\">Ancient Greek philosopher<\/a>\u00a0who lived around 2400 years ago in\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"Athens\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/Athens\">Athens<\/a>. Almost all of Plato&#8217;s surviving writings are dialogues (philosophical plays).\u00a0<em>Ion<\/em>\u00a0is a dialogue between Socrates (Plato&#8217;s teacher) and Ion, a celebrated performer of poetry.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">Although Plato is always interesting, it is often hard to find a positive lesson that can be drawn from his philosophy. Often his philosophical ideas contradict our modern sensibilities too much for us to sympathise with his position. The challenge here has been to read\u00a0<em>Ion<\/em>\u00a0while seeking a positive truth.<\/p>\n<h3 style=\"text-align: justify;\">Summary:<\/h3>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>Ion<\/em>\u00a0begins with its eponymous character declaring that he has recently won a prize for his\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"rhapsody\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/rhapsody\">rhapsody<\/a>, a result of his being an expert on\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"Homer\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/Homer\">Homer<\/a>. Although Ion can\u2019t explain why, this expertise appears to be limited to Homer and none of the other great poets. Another aspect of Ion\u2019s skill which appears inexplicable is that when performing before a crowd, Ion finds himself acutely feeling those emotions expressed by the poem.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><a class=\"populated\" title=\"Socrates\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/Socrates\">Socrates<\/a>\u00a0tries to get Ion to explain exactly what it means to be an expert rhapsodist, the difficulty being that Ion is not an expert on many sections of Homer&#8217;s works, for example, those which relate to particular skills, such as\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"medicine\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/medicine\">medicine<\/a>. Ion can describe the medical portions of Homer&#8217;s poems, but because he is not an expert on medicine he cannot explain why Homer&#8217;s writings on medicine are right. Just before the end of the dialogue Ion claims that his expertise is the same as that of a military general.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">Upon hearing this last answer, Socrates claims that either Ion is avoiding answering truthfully, in which case Ion is being dishonest, or else Ion doesn&#8217;t truly know what the nature of his expertise is, in which case it makes sense (in light of the peculiar facets of Ion&#8217;s skills mentioned above) that good poetry is the product of divine inspiration. Given the choice between these two characterizations,\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"divinity\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/divinity\">dishonesty<\/a>\u00a0or\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"dishonesty\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/dishonesty\">divinity<\/a>, Ion chooses the latter.<\/p>\n<h3 style=\"text-align: justify;\">Art as divine madness:<\/h3>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">In\u00a0<em>Ion<\/em>,\u00a0Socrates suggests that\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"Muse\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/Muse\">Muses<\/a>\u00a0may divinely inspire the\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"William Blake\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/William+Blake\">poet<\/a> so that the poet experiences their passion for their art as a madness. Socrates offers the analogy of the magnet (the Muse) from which hangs a ring (the inspired poet), and from which ring further rings can be hung (trainers, performers like Ion, and eventually even the audience); the magnetic force which holds up the first ring spread through the entire\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"art history\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/art+history\">chain<\/a>.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p><em>Thus there is a vast chain of choral singers and dancers, and their trainers and subtrainers, who are suspended, as if from the magnet, at the side of the rings which hang down from the Muse.<\/em>\u00a0(536a)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">It is unlikely that the notion of art being the result of the Muses \u2013 romantic by today\u2019s standards \u2013 was being explicated by Plato with positive intentions. For instance, it is noteworthy that Ion\u2019s dialogue conveys him to the audience as something of a self-important fool, whose ignorance shields him from Socrates\u2019 final insult: forcing him to choose between admitting to dishonesty and external inspiration (and so ignorance).<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">One analogy for Ion\u2019s understanding of Homer is that he is similar to someone who understands the effects of a\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"drug\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/drug\">drug<\/a>\u00a0by seeing what it does to experience; the analogy being that Ion may not be able to justify Homer\u2019s point of view, but is happy to be an expert in seeing the world through Homer . From this it has been argued that Plato\u2019s central argument against poetry is not merely its lack of knowledge (which it professes to possess), but that it is corrupting by teaching us a particular point of view, when in fact what we should be seeking are\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"universal\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/universal\">general<\/a>\u00a0truths.<\/p>\n<h3 style=\"text-align: justify;\">Truths received:<\/h3>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">It is initially difficult to take a positive lesson from the main thrust of Ion, which seems to disparage the arts (even if not yet at the stage of\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"The Republic\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/The+Republic\">The Republic<\/a>&#8216;s\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"Plato's Attack on Poetry\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/Plato%2527s+Attack+on+Poetry\">call for them to be banned<\/a>). The\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"difficulty\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/difficulty\">problem<\/a>\u00a0is not only that Plato is showing poetry to be inherently flawed as a medium (which would offend our considerations of art qua cultural expression), but even more basically Plato&#8217;s showing\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"anything\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/anything\">something<\/a>\u00a0to be bad. It is difficult to simultaneously desire to be (actively, and not merely passively)\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"cultural relativism\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/cultural+relativism\">open-minded<\/a>\u00a0of a position, and yet have that position be antagonistic to that same open-mindedness.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">The question here is not &#8220;What is worthwhile in\u00a0<em>Ion<\/em>?&#8221; but rather &#8220;How can\u00a0<em>Ion<\/em>\u00a0(in its summation) be seen as worthwhile?&#8221; Thus it is not enough to state that there are valuable lessons to be found interspersed through the text, but rather once the principle\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"thesis\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/thesis\">thesis<\/a>\u00a0of\u00a0<em>Ion<\/em>\u00a0is agreed upon that same thesis needs to be shown as a worthy point of view. This requires some walk-through:<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">Plato is\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"dialectic\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/dialectic\">demonstrating<\/a>\u00a0through Ion and Socrates that any truth found in poetry (and its propagators) is accidental, merely stemming from some unrealized external source. This is sufficient insofar as Ion is considered a classic &#8220;Socratic dialogue&#8221;, showing that a certain assumption is weaker than originally supposed (in this case the assumption relates to the expertise of the poet); this is not sufficient insofar as a positive doctrine is being sought. The positive doctrine would be that belief which Socrates holds, and on account of which he is suspect of Ion&#8217;s\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"know thyself\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/know+thyself\">knowledge<\/a>. It would seem that this factor being sought relates in some way to Socrates&#8217;\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"epistemology\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/epistemology\">criterion for truth<\/a>\u00a0and its contrast with Ion&#8217;s. For Ion a truth can be established by proving its presence \u2013 whether simply or\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"hermenuetics\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/hermenuetics\">hermeneutically<\/a> \u2013 in Homer&#8217;s texts. Neither a simple nor a hermeneutical linkage to Homer is sufficient for Socrates (since any simple link implies a merely superficial awareness of what the text says about the matter, and interpretations are whimsical exercises).<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">The contrast can be illustrated as follows: for Ion, it is enough to know what Homer says about driving a\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"chariot\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/chariot\">chariot<\/a>, whereas for Socrates it is important to know about driving a chariot irrespective of Homer. Thus although a person may correctly learn truth &#8220;A&#8221; by means of thing &#8220;B&#8221;, they do not have a proper understanding (per Socrates&#8217; criterion for truth) until they are able to separate that which they\u2019ve learnt, &#8220;A&#8221;, from that which they\u2019ve learnt it by, &#8220;B&#8221;.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">It follows that a person can conduct the following interview with themselves: &#8220;I know this thing &#8216;A&#8217;. How do I know it? I know &#8216;A&#8217; because I experienced &#8216;B&#8217;. What would it mean, or how could I conceptualise &#8216;A&#8217; without &#8216;B&#8217;?\u201d<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">Although the exercise seems to reflect some sort of effort at\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"empiricism\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/empiricism\">empirical<\/a>\u00a0awareness (that is, to be aware of how we know each thing), this is not its purpose. The problem is not only to determine how we know a thing, but rather to make an effort at knowing that thing after cutting it off from its learning process. The aim is not to test that thing, but rather to see it in itself.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">This is a lesson we should learn.<\/p>\n<hr width=\"75%\" \/>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong><span class=\"\" style=\"display:block;clear:both;height: 0px;padding-top: 20px;border-top-width:0px;border-bottom-width:0px;\"><\/span>References<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li style=\"text-align: justify;\">Pappas, N.\u00a0<strong>Plato&#8217;s\u00a0<em>Ion<\/em>: The Problem of the Author<\/strong>\u00a0(1951)\u00a0<em>Philosophy<\/em>\u00a0<a class=\"externalLink\" href=\"http:\/\/www.jstor.org\/stable\/3751473\" rel=\"nofollow\">[link]<\/a><\/li>\n<li style=\"text-align: justify;\">Jowett, B. (translator)\u00a0<strong>Plato&#8217;s Ion<\/strong>\u00a0<a class=\"externalLink\" href=\"http:\/\/classics.mit.edu\/Plato\/ion.html\" rel=\"nofollow\">[link]<\/a>\u00a0&#8211; a minor note on terminology: what Jowett translates as &#8220;art&#8221; is more akin to what we would call a technique or professional skill, and differs from what I&#8217;ve called &#8220;art&#8221; in the write-up in which I mean something like an aesthetic product. In\u00a0<em>Ion<\/em>\u00a0Plato seems to hold that the problem with poets is that their knowledge is not a\u00a0<em><a class=\"populated\" title=\"techne\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/techne\">techne<\/a><\/em>, i.e. it is not a technical skill\/proper knowledge, although it well should be. Plato is effectively arguing against the post-Romantic tendency to want artists to express their art primitively, without necessarily understanding what they&#8217;re doing. Thanks to\u00a0<a class=\"populated\" title=\"DonJaime\" href=\"https:\/\/everything2.com\/title\/DonJaime\">DonJaime<\/a>\u00a0for some helpful suggestions<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Plato was an\u00a0Ancient Greek philosopher\u00a0who lived around 2400 years ago in\u00a0Athens. Almost all of Plato&#8217;s surviving writings are dialogues (philosophical plays).\u00a0Ion\u00a0is a dialogue between Socrates (Plato&#8217;s teacher) and Ion, a celebrated performer of poetry. Although Plato is always interesting, it is often hard to find a positive lesson that can be drawn from his philosophy. [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2},"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[159,303,198,204,20,269],"tags":[],"metadata":[],"class_list":["post-1714","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-all-posts","category-ancientgreek","category-book-review","category-everything2","category-philosophy","category-plato"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":2425,"url":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/2013\/02\/06\/philosophy-readings-through-time\/","url_meta":{"origin":1714,"position":0},"title":"Philosophy readings through time","author":"Pala","date":"February 6, 2013","format":false,"excerpt":"Editorial notes: In February 2013, Shai adds\u00a0Evernote\u00a0to his suite of repositories. This is an application designed specifically for note-taking, organising, task lists and archiving. This proves to be the ideal tool for him to better control his ever-growing research notes, stored primarily up to this point, in handwritten notebooks and\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;All Posts&quot;","block_context":{"text":"All Posts","link":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/all-posts\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":1708,"url":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/2010\/10\/18\/speusippus-2\/","url_meta":{"origin":1714,"position":1},"title":"Speusippus","author":"Pala","date":"October 18, 2010","format":false,"excerpt":"I recommend reading the first footnote before starting It started with\u00a0Plato, but it didn't end there[1]. This fact isn't often discussed. Plato lived in\u00a0Athens\u00a0in\u00a0Ancient Greece\u00a0about 2400 years ago. He himself studied informally under\u00a0Socrates, and Plato, in turn, had his own students and disciples at a school (of sorts) called\u00a0The Academy.[2]\u00a0The\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;All Posts&quot;","block_context":{"text":"All Posts","link":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/all-posts\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":1710,"url":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/2010\/11\/06\/ancient-greek-philosophy-2\/","url_meta":{"origin":1714,"position":2},"title":"Ancient Greek Philosophy","author":"Pala","date":"November 6, 2010","format":false,"excerpt":"What is\u00a0this?\u00a0It's an index of sorts, linking to\u00a0nodes\u00a0that relate to\u00a0philosophy\u00a0in\u00a0Ancient Greece. See also the first footnote below[1]. It was written for two main reasons: (1) As an index that can be referred to when looking for something to read about Ancient Greek philosophy; (2) as an index that can be\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;All Posts&quot;","block_context":{"text":"All Posts","link":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/all-posts\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":954,"url":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/2016\/12\/12\/apology\/","url_meta":{"origin":1714,"position":3},"title":"Apology","author":"Pala","date":"December 12, 2016","format":false,"excerpt":"My motivation to express and communicate my thoughts on these things is curtailed on one side by an awareness of the immensity of my ignorance, and on the other side by my fear that I have no right to promote such substantial claims given my absent credentials. What follows is\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;All Posts&quot;","block_context":{"text":"All Posts","link":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/all-posts\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":2636,"url":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/2015\/01\/07\/thomas-more-utopia\/","url_meta":{"origin":1714,"position":4},"title":"Thomas More &#8211; Utopia","author":"Pala","date":"January 7, 2015","format":false,"excerpt":"Journal: Even before finishing this book[I] I felt underwhelmed. First, it was too easy, as if any text from the 15th century needed to be difficult. Difficult because it should be foreign. And difficult because of one pre-existing standard for the text's mould: Plato's Republic. Essay: Before, I had categorized\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;All Posts&quot;","block_context":{"text":"All Posts","link":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/all-posts\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":1704,"url":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/2010\/10\/14\/anaximander-and-the-beginnings-of-greek-philosophy-2\/","url_meta":{"origin":1714,"position":5},"title":"Anaximander and the beginnings of Greek philosophy","author":"Pala","date":"October 14, 2010","format":false,"excerpt":"History\u00a0has recorded Anaximander as one of the first of the\u00a0Ancient Greek\u00a0philosophers, preceded only by his teacher\u00a0Thales. Anaximander lived around 2600 years ago, in the large\u00a0Ionian\u00a0city of\u00a0Miletus, which can be found on the West coast of modern day Turkey. Anaximander is famous, together with his teacher Thales and his own student\u00a0Anaximenes\u00a0for\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;All Posts&quot;","block_context":{"text":"All Posts","link":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/all-posts\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]}],"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/padotI-rE","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1714","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1714"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1714\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1714"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1714"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1714"},{"taxonomy":"metadata","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thetravellerslastjourney.com\/shai\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/metadata?post=1714"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}